Ahriman (Persia; god)- cats

Anait (Phoenicia, Canaan, Ur; goddess)- lions

Apollo (Greece; god)- lions

Artemis (Greece;goddess)—cats

Attis (Middle East; god) – lions

Bacchus (Rome; god) – panthers

Bast (Egypt;goddess)-cats, lynx

Cybele (Greece, Phrygia; goddess) – lions

Damkina/Damgalnuna (Mesopotamia; goddess) – lions

Diana (Rome; goddess) –cats

Dionysus (Greece; god) – cheetahs, lions, leopards, panthers, tigers

Durga (India; goddess) – lions, tighters

Enki (Middle East; god) – lions

Freyja (Norse; goddess) – cats

Hathor (Egypt; goddss) – cats, lions

Horus (Egypt; god) – cats

Inanna (Canaan, Phoenicia, Sumeria, Uruk, Babylon; goddess) – lions

Ishtar (Mesopotamia, Babylon, Assyria, Sumeria, Arabis, Phoenicia, Canaan; goddess) – lions

Isis (Egypt; goddess) – cats

Liberty (Rome; goddess) – cats

Maat (Egypt; goddess) – lynx

Marduk (Mesopotamia; god) – lions

Mithras (Persia; god) – lions

Mut (Egyptt; goddess) – lionesses, cats

Nekhebet (Egypt; goddess) – lion

Nergal (Middle East, Babylon; god) – lion

Ningirsu (Middle East; god) – lion

Ninlin/Belitis (Mesopotamia; god) – lion

Ninurta (Mospotamia; god) – lion

Osiris (Egypt; god) – leopards

Ovinnik (Slavonic; god) – black cats

Pan (Greece; god) – leopards, panthers

Pasht (Egypt; goddess) – cats

Ra (Egypt; god) – cats

Renenet (Egypt; goddess) – lions

Sakkan (Mesopotamia; god) – lions, cheetahs, lynx, leopards

Set (Egypt; god) – cats

Shadafra (Phoenicia; god) – lions

Shasti (India; goddess) – cats

Shiva (India; god) – tiger

Source: The Mysterious, Magickal Cat by D.J. Conway.

Disclaimer: This was  copied from a very old tumblr post that I took a screenshot of. I don’t know the user that originally posted it, but it wasn’t me. I know D.J. Conway has a reputation of misinformation, so uf any of the information is wrong, I apologize – though I know a lot about mythology and world history, I certainly don’t claim to be an expert on the feline associations of world religions!

I can’t speak for all of them, but I know that Horus was a falcon/peregrine God, not a cat God. He used to go on lion hunts, but that doesn’t mean he was associated with lions.

Pan is also my personal Patron, and he has never been associated with anything feline. He is a Goat God, after all!

Diana, I’m sure, is usually only associated with hunting dogs and deer, and possibly an eagle.

holzmantweed:

seph7:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca. Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

Wow. You is special.

But you missed the part where they passed down information about WIcca.

And you missed the part where Gardner appropriated from others. He is NOT even the first “Wiccan” so I guess you a Neo-Wiccan too. Welcome to the club. lowly like the rest of  us.

Gardner WAS the first Wiccan. He created the practice, and if you knew Wiccan history, you’d know that. He did appropriate things from various sources, and if people can’t deal with that, go elsewhere.

Gardner specifically stole elements of Wicca from others. Plus, from his own accounts He got information from  the New Forest coven. EVEN he does not claim to be anything “original”. And how the hell you gonna say he appropriated from others, but then claim that  NON-BT Wiccans are appropriating from him.

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

You can not CREATE and APPROPRIATE THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And why the hell in your world is Gardner allowed to pass down information but not Buckland,Cunningham and Starhawk are not.

Do you also refer to American English as NEO-English because it not the original version and was pass down? Do we all have to go to British school to be Real English speakers?

like go away and come back when you make sense.

Really??? *giggle-snort*

Gardner stole bits of WICCA from elsewhere??? That would be wuite the trick considering that Wicca didn’t exist in it’s total form before Gardner created it.

Anyone worth their salt knows that he took bits from Golden Dawn, Thelema, OTO, Leland, and mostly he claimed he was reviving a Witchcraft practice that he was initiated into and taught. Whether the latter is completely true, has never been proven definitively.

You seem to be missing the BIG point here. People can create, appropriate, practice or dabble in whatever the hell they want. Just don;t go around calling it a label that doesn’t fit.

Starhawk isn’t Wiccan. Cunningham created a Wiccan inspired solitary practice, but it isn’t Wicca. Buckland… Has a lot to answer for (That is a whole other topic).

Just because a bunch of people publish books and slap the Wicca label on them, doesn’t mean they are anything like Wicca.

Between them, Hesselton, Valiente, Hutton, Bracelin, Kelly, and King make a pretty firm case for the existence of the New Forest Coven — as well as at least some of the membership, including who Initiated Gardner.

Also, you need to make up your mind if the BBB is nonsense, or if Buckland has much to answer for.

True enough, but as I said, it’s never been definitely PROVEN. Do I think it was possible he was, of course. But, I have always left my mind open to the  possibility that he wasn’t.

BBB is nonsense, hence why he has a lot to answer for!

When you assert that Gardner invented Wicca, you go well beyond leaving your mind open to the possibility that he wasn’t: you name him a liar for stating that he was.  This is a strange thing to say about the person you claim founded the religion you claim to follow.

You misunderstand. I never said there was a possibility that he didn’t create Wicca, I said there was a slight possibility that he wasn’t initiated into an old Witchcraft practice. It wouldn’t actually make a difference either way. Wicca is still Wicca regardless, and he still created it regardless.

But, that’s the point. Everything I can tell you, is public knowledge anyway.

Therein lies the problem with answering this. I can’t tell you what I can’t tell you, because I can’t tell you!

wecameasheroes:

The only people that should know my Lineage is my follow Gardnerians.

No one else, How do i know if you’re going to take the information i told you and claim it to be your own? 

Exactly.

twisting-ways:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

Various Wiccan Traditions.

Gardnerian Wicca - The original and where all others sprang from. Created by Gardner. Initiatory only.

Alexandrian Wicca - Formed by Alex and Maxine Sanders, both initiated Gardnerians. Mostly the same as Gardnerian, but with…

Ugh, don’t even get me started on the Frosts….

Been there, done that! I even own their despicable book, just because I couldn’t quite believe what I’d been hearing. It’s all true. Utter deviants.

holzmantweed:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca. Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

Wow. You is special.

But you missed the part where they passed down information about WIcca.

And you missed the part where Gardner appropriated from others. He is NOT even the first “Wiccan” so I guess you a Neo-Wiccan too. Welcome to the club. lowly like the rest of  us.

Gardner WAS the first Wiccan. He created the practice, and if you knew Wiccan history, you’d know that. He did appropriate things from various sources, and if people can’t deal with that, go elsewhere.

Gardner specifically stole elements of Wicca from others. Plus, from his own accounts He got information from  the New Forest coven. EVEN he does not claim to be anything “original”. And how the hell you gonna say he appropriated from others, but then claim that  NON-BT Wiccans are appropriating from him.

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

You can not CREATE and APPROPRIATE THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And why the hell in your world is Gardner allowed to pass down information but not Buckland,Cunningham and Starhawk are not.

Do you also refer to American English as NEO-English because it not the original version and was pass down? Do we all have to go to British school to be Real English speakers?

like go away and come back when you make sense.

Really??? *giggle-snort*

Gardner stole bits of WICCA from elsewhere??? That would be wuite the trick considering that Wicca didn’t exist in it’s total form before Gardner created it.

Anyone worth their salt knows that he took bits from Golden Dawn, Thelema, OTO, Leland, and mostly he claimed he was reviving a Witchcraft practice that he was initiated into and taught. Whether the latter is completely true, has never been proven definitively.

You seem to be missing the BIG point here. People can create, appropriate, practice or dabble in whatever the hell they want. Just don;t go around calling it a label that doesn’t fit.

Starhawk isn’t Wiccan. Cunningham created a Wiccan inspired solitary practice, but it isn’t Wicca. Buckland… Has a lot to answer for (That is a whole other topic).

Just because a bunch of people publish books and slap the Wicca label on them, doesn’t mean they are anything like Wicca.

Between them, Hesselton, Valiente, Hutton, Bracelin, Kelly, and King make a pretty firm case for the existence of the New Forest Coven — as well as at least some of the membership, including who Initiated Gardner.

Also, you need to make up your mind if the BBB is nonsense, or if Buckland has much to answer for.

True enough, but as I said, it’s never been definitely PROVEN. Do I think it was possible he was, of course. But, I have always left my mind open to the  possibility that he wasn’t.

BBB is nonsense, hence why he has a lot to answer for!

holzmantweed:

seph7:

Various Wiccan Traditions.

Gardnerian Wicca - The original and where all others sprang from. Created by Gardner. Initiatory only.

Alexandrian Wicca - Formed by Alex and Maxine Sanders, both initiated Gardnerians. Mostly the same as Gardnerian, but with some embellishments. (I’m not Alexandrian, so you’ll have to ask one what they are, if they’re not oathbound!)

Dianic Wicca - Formed by Zsuzsanna Budapest in the 70’s as a Goddess and women only tradition. As far as I can tell, it’s also non-initiatory, though still coven-practiced. (It is also not viewed by most Gards and Alex as Wicca, as they deny the existence of the God, or simply ignore him.)

The next lot were created in America, and as far as I know, very few if any, are practiced in the UK.

McFarland or Old Dianic Wicca - Formed in the 70’s by Morgan McFarland and Mark Roberts. They include both the Goddess and God, though view the God as part of the Goddess, as her male aspect. It also allows males as well as females. It is an initiatory tradition, though does not use degrees like Gardnerian and Alexandrian. (I always question the need to subjugate the God.)

Blue Star Wicca - Founded in the 70’s and based on Gard and Alex Trads. Emphasis on community help and musical liturgy, and is an initiatory tradition like Gard and Alex, but also include two ranks before the three degrees. (If it has no lineage back to the original, is it Wicca?)

Georgian Wicca - Founded in the 70’s by George Patterson who claimed he had studied with a Celtic coven in Boston, though has never been able to prove it. Often described as an Eclectic path as it includes many things from various Wiccan Trads, and is initiatory and oath-bound. (Seems very wishy washy to me, and isn’t part of the American BTW because it has no lineage, so technically, not Wicca at all, though Wiccan influenced.)

Seax-Wica - Founded by Raymond Buckland in 1973. They focus primarily on Germanic deities. It is the only Wiccan tradition that allows self-initiation into its ranks, and has no oath-bound rules. (A bit watery in my opinion. How can you verify that anyone has actually studied the material beforehand? Most older trads hesitate to call this Wicca at all.)

British Traditional Wicca - Is an American term for those traditions or lines that can trace their lineage back to Gard and Alex Wicca. (We don’t have lines in the UK. Wicca is pretty much defined as Gard or Alex in Britain, which would need to be traceable back to the source. Gardner or Sanders.)

Do you acknowledge Alexandrian Wicca as Wicca?  If you do, then you are inconsistent in failing to regard Seax-Wica as Wicca:  Buckland is also an Initiated Gardnerian.

You are mistaken about Seax being the only Wiccan tradition that allows self-initiation:  Valiente published a self Initiation ritual in Witchcraft for Tomorrow, and from the Alexandrian camp no less than Janet Faraar is on record recognizing the validity of self Initiation.

You have clarified your fundamental error, however: it is not Gardnerian Wicca and Wicca you are confusing, it is British Traditional Wicca that you are confusing with Wicca.  BTW is a subset of Wicca, whether you like it or not.  That ship has sailed.

I know Buckland is a Gard. I never said he wasn’t.

I also know that many consider his Big Blue Book nothing more than crappy ramblings. How can you possibly read a book and then be Wiccan (Wican)?? Does that mean I could go along and say I initiated myself into Seax, and get in?? Rubbish. There is far more to it than learning from a book! Wicca is designed to be practiced, experienced, and learned by doing.

I also know that Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone’s belief that Wicca should be accessible by all, which includes ‘self-initiation’, is not a stance held by most other initiates, and none that I personally know..

As I already mentioned about Valiente, I personally think she wanted Wicca to go into a different direction than Gardner took it.

Self-Initiation is an oxy-moron. You can’t initiate yourself into something you don’t yet have knowledge of (don’t confuse this with dedication). You can’t teach yourself the Mysteries.

The purpose of an initiation is to be accepted into a path, and learn from those with greater knowledge than you.

Next you’ll be telling me that the Frost’s are respectable Wiccans…

holzmantweed:

seph7:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca.

Somebody watch this one closely at traffic crossings, OK?

*slow clap*

Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Are you seriously asserting that Alexandrian Wicca is not Wicca?  Georgian?  Blue Star?  Dianic? Algard?  Faery?  Or if you’re not so silly as to assert their nonexistence, are you asserting they are identical to Gardnerian Wicca?

Can you hold off on explaining that to them while I get some popcorn?

Also, self-Initiation is Initiation, per Valiente, per Anderson (Feri), per Faraar (Alexandrian)… this list does go on.

FYI, Alexandrian is VERY similar to Gardnerian. As for Georgian, Dianic, Blue Star and Feri/Faery/Fairy, no, they aren’t Wicca.

Old Wiccan Joke:  How many Alexandrians does it take to change a light bulb?  Let’s see, how did the Gardnerians do it?

Every argument you can marshal to support the notion that the branches of Wicca I’ve listed aren’t Wicca apply to Alexandrian.  Your position simply is not internally consistent.

No they don’t. I’ll post separately to explain why.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

Seax Wica is not the same thing as Gardnerian Wicca.  It is Wicca.  Add Aidan Kelly to the list of Third Degree Gardnerians you’re contradicting.

Also, neither Buckland nor Valiente “went their own ways” — Buckland moved Wicca in a new direction with Seax, Valiente pretty much defined orthodox Gardnerian Wicca until her death.

Buckland didn’t ‘move’ Wicca in a new direction. Seax isn’t Wicca, and his Big Blue Book is full of utter tripe.

You need to compare notes with more Gardnerian Third Degrees:  alot of Gardnerians were very upset when he published the Big Blue Book because they felt he revealed a whole bunch of oathbound material.  You can’t have it both ways.

Well, until I am initiated to 3rd degree, there may be things I am not yet privy to.

As for Valiente, she left Gardner’s coven in ‘57 to form her own coven, then turned to Tubal Cain in ‘64. Tubal Cain is not Wicca. She preferred Tubal Cain because it had an even greater emphasis on getting closer to nature, something she felt Wicca lacked.

I’m surprised you’re not trying to claim that Coven of Atho represented a break from Wicca, given how much of Charles Cardell’s work it incorporated — no that you’d be any more correct in that instance.

Joining Tubal Cain in ‘64 did not negate her status as a Gardnerian High Priestess.  This should be clear from the fact that published works, well after her departure from Tubal Cain in ‘66, all fall well within the realm of Wicca.

I never said that she stopped being Wiccan, but she clearly wanted Wicca to go in a different direction, and considering she helped make Wicca what it became in Gardner’s day, she’d have a right to.

She did much to shape Wicca in the early days, hoping to pull it further away from Crowley’s work that Gardner had used bits of.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

With such an extensive period of study and practice, it is truly astonishing that you have proven you know far less than you think.

It does seem that all your difficulties here steam from the absurd notion that only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.

I never said only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.

Not in so many words, but from the way you say “Wicca” when the proper term would be “Gardnerian Wicca” your beliefs on the matter are clear.

BTW, what’s your lineage?

I can’t say the same for American Wiccans, but here in the UK, we don’t have the plethora of traditions that they do in America, so anything that doesn’t trace back and keep the tenets basic ways (probably the wrong way to describe it), isn’t Wicca. As I said, I’ll detail the reasons in a separate post.

I’m 2nd degree Gardnerian, though it’s been a few years since I was in a coven, and I pretty much practice alone. Of course, my personal practice isn’t Wiccan. It just suits me at the moment.

I’m surprised you don’t understand my question:  to ask your lineage is ask who Initiated you, and who Initiated them, and so on, until we get back to Gardner.  In the U.S., this is well understood as a method for authenticating one’s claim to Gardnerian Initiation.

As it is in the UK, but considering I don’t know your trad, and I don’t know you from Adam, not to mention who initiated me wouldn’t mean anything to you anyway, why do you believe you deserve to know?

This must be a difference between the US and UK, then:  in the US it is not a matter of the querent’s deserving to know, it is a matter of someone who claims Gardnerian Initiation authenticating their claim.  As to what it would mean to me, while I am not myself Gardnerian I know more than a few Gardnerian High Clergy who are perfectly capable of validating a lineage.  They’ve advised me pretty consistently to distrust a claim of Initiation from someone who is not willing to provide their lineage on request.

Yes, and were I required to validate my Initiation status to a fellow Gardnerian, particularly if I was looking to join a coven, then I would gladly state so.

As it is, you are not Gardnerian, nor do I know you, nor am I seeking entry into a coven.

I’m sure you don’t believe me, and I’m even surer that I don’t care.

holzmantweed:

seph7:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca.

Somebody watch this one closely at traffic crossings, OK?

*slow clap*

Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Are you seriously asserting that Alexandrian Wicca is not Wicca?  Georgian?  Blue Star?  Dianic? Algard?  Faery?  Or if you’re not so silly as to assert their nonexistence, are you asserting they are identical to Gardnerian Wicca?

Can you hold off on explaining that to them while I get some popcorn?

Also, self-Initiation is Initiation, per Valiente, per Anderson (Feri), per Faraar (Alexandrian)… this list does go on.

FYI, Alexandrian is VERY similar to Gardnerian. As for Georgian, Dianic, Blue Star and Feri/Faery/Fairy, no, they aren’t Wicca.

Old Wiccan Joke:  How many Alexandrians does it take to change a light bulb?  Let’s see, how did the Gardnerians do it?

Every argument you can marshal to support the notion that the branches of Wicca I’ve listed aren’t Wicca apply to Alexandrian.  Your position simply is not internally consistent.

No they don’t. I’ll post separately to explain why.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

Seax Wica is not the same thing as Gardnerian Wicca.  It is Wicca.  Add Aidan Kelly to the list of Third Degree Gardnerians you’re contradicting.

Also, neither Buckland nor Valiente “went their own ways” — Buckland moved Wicca in a new direction with Seax, Valiente pretty much defined orthodox Gardnerian Wicca until her death.

Buckland didn’t ‘move’ Wicca in a new direction. Seax isn’t Wicca, and his Big Blue Book is full of utter tripe.

You need to compare notes with more Gardnerian Third Degrees:  alot of Gardnerians were very upset when he published the Big Blue Book because they felt he revealed a whole bunch of oathbound material.  You can’t have it both ways.

Well, until I am initiated to 3rd degree, there may be things I am not yet privy to.

As for Valiente, she left Gardner’s coven in ‘57 to form her own coven, then turned to Tubal Cain in ‘64. Tubal Cain is not Wicca. She preferred Tubal Cain because it had an even greater emphasis on getting closer to nature, something she felt Wicca lacked.

I’m surprised you’re not trying to claim that Coven of Atho represented a break from Wicca, given how much of Charles Cardell’s work it incorporated — no that you’d be any more correct in that instance.

Joining Tubal Cain in ‘64 did not negate her status as a Gardnerian High Priestess.  This should be clear from the fact that published works, well after her departure from Tubal Cain in ‘66, all fall well within the realm of Wicca.

I never said that she stopped being Wiccan, but she clearly wanted Wicca to go in a different direction, and considering she helped make Wicca what it became in Gardner’s day, she’d have a right to.

She did much to shape Wicca in the early days, hoping to pull it further away from Crowley’s work that Gardner had used bits of.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

With such an extensive period of study and practice, it is truly astonishing that you have proven you know far less than you think.

It does seem that all your difficulties here steam from the absurd notion that only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.

I never said only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.

Not in so many words, but from the way you say “Wicca” when the proper term would be “Gardnerian Wicca” your beliefs on the matter are clear.

BTW, what’s your lineage?

I can’t say the same for American Wiccans, but here in the UK, we don’t have the plethora of traditions that they do in America, so anything that doesn’t trace back and keep the tenets basic ways (probably the wrong way to describe it), isn’t Wicca. As I said, I’ll detail the reasons in a separate post.

I’m 2nd degree Gardnerian, though it’s been a few years since I was in a coven, and I pretty much practice alone. Of course, my personal practice isn’t Wiccan. It just suits me at the moment.

I’m surprised you don’t understand my question:  to ask your lineage is ask who Initiated you, and who Initiated them, and so on, until we get back to Gardner.  In the U.S., this is well understood as a method for authenticating one’s claim to Gardnerian Initiation.

As it is in the UK, but considering I don’t know your trad, and I don’t know you from Adam, not to mention who initiated me wouldn’t mean anything to you anyway, why do you believe you deserve to know?

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca. Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

Wow. You is special.

But you missed the part where they passed down information about WIcca.

And you missed the part where Gardner appropriated from others. He is NOT even the first “Wiccan” so I guess you a Neo-Wiccan too. Welcome to the club. lowly like the rest of  us.

Gardner WAS the first Wiccan. He created the practice, and if you knew Wiccan history, you’d know that. He did appropriate things from various sources, and if people can’t deal with that, go elsewhere.

Gardner specifically stole elements of Wicca from others. Plus, from his own accounts He got information from  the New Forest coven. EVEN he does not claim to be anything “original”. And how the hell you gonna say he appropriated from others, but then claim that  NON-BT Wiccans are appropriating from him.

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

You can not CREATE and APPROPRIATE THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And why the hell in your world is Gardner allowed to pass down information but not Buckland,Cunningham and Starhawk are not.

Do you also refer to American English as NEO-English because it not the original version and was pass down? Do we all have to go to British school to be Real English speakers?

like go away and come back when you make sense.

Really??? *giggle-snort*

Gardner stole bits of WICCA from elsewhere??? That would be wuite the trick considering that Wicca didn’t exist in it’s total form before Gardner created it.

Anyone worth their salt knows that he took bits from Golden Dawn, Thelema, OTO, Leland, and mostly he claimed he was reviving a Witchcraft practice that he was initiated into and taught. Whether the latter is completely true, has never been proven definitively.

You seem to be missing the BIG point here. People can create, appropriate, practice or dabble in whatever the hell they want. Just don;t go around calling it a label that doesn’t fit.

Starhawk isn’t Wiccan. Cunningham created a Wiccan inspired solitary practice, but it isn’t Wicca. Buckland… Has a lot to answer for (That is a whole other topic).

Just because a bunch of people publish books and slap the Wicca label on them, doesn’t mean they are anything like Wicca.

No, people Can’t appropriate whatever they want. He specifically appropriate parts from POC. You can not own a religion that you appropriate.  

 Stop being a self-important elitist and maybe you will understand this

Really. So, he appropriated Wicca, fully formed, complete with BoS, rituals and degrees, Mysteries and practices?

I must bow to your knowledge! I know nothing!!

Various Wiccan Traditions.

Gardnerian Wicca - The original and where all others sprang from. Created by Gardner. Initiatory only.

Alexandrian Wicca - Formed by Alex and Maxine Sanders, both initiated Gardnerians. Mostly the same as Gardnerian, but with some embellishments. (I’m not Alexandrian, so you’ll have to ask one what they are, if they’re not oathbound!)

Dianic Wicca - Formed by Zsuzsanna Budapest in the 70’s as a Goddess and women only tradition. As far as I can tell, it’s also non-initiatory, though still coven-practiced. (It is also not viewed by most Gards and Alex as Wicca, as they deny the existence of the God, or simply ignore him.)

The next lot were created in America, and as far as I know, very few if any, are practiced in the UK.

McFarland or Old Dianic Wicca - Formed in the 70’s by Morgan McFarland and Mark Roberts. They include both the Goddess and God, though view the God as part of the Goddess, as her male aspect. It also allows males as well as females. It is an initiatory tradition, though does not use degrees like Gardnerian and Alexandrian. (I always question the need to subjugate the God.)

Blue Star Wicca - Founded in the 70’s and based on Gard and Alex Trads. Emphasis on community help and musical liturgy, and is an initiatory tradition like Gard and Alex, but also include two ranks before the three degrees. (If it has no lineage back to the original, is it Wicca?)

Georgian Wicca - Founded in the 70’s by George Patterson who claimed he had studied with a Celtic coven in Boston, though has never been able to prove it. Often described as an Eclectic path as it includes many things from various Wiccan Trads, and is initiatory and oath-bound. (Seems very wishy washy to me, and isn’t part of the American BTW because it has no lineage, so technically, not Wicca at all, though Wiccan influenced.)

Seax-Wica - Founded by Raymond Buckland in 1973. They focus primarily on Germanic deities. It is the only Wiccan tradition that allows self-initiation into its ranks, and has no oath-bound rules. (A bit watery in my opinion. How can you verify that anyone has actually studied the material beforehand? Most older trads hesitate to call this Wicca at all.)

British Traditional Wicca - Is an American term for those traditions or lines that can trace their lineage back to Gard and Alex Wicca. (We don’t have lines in the UK. Wicca is pretty much defined as Gard or Alex in Britain, which would need to be traceable back to the source. Gardner or Sanders.)

holzmantweed:

seph7:

holzmantweed:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca.

Somebody watch this one closely at traffic crossings, OK?

*slow clap*

Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Are you seriously asserting that Alexandrian Wicca is not Wicca?  Georgian?  Blue Star?  Dianic? Algard?  Faery?  Or if you’re not so silly as to assert their nonexistence, are you asserting they are identical to Gardnerian Wicca?

Can you hold off on explaining that to them while I get some popcorn?

Also, self-Initiation is Initiation, per Valiente, per Anderson (Feri), per Faraar (Alexandrian)… this list does go on.

FYI, Alexandrian is VERY similar to Gardnerian. As for Georgian, Dianic, Blue Star and Feri/Faery/Fairy, no, they aren’t Wicca.

Old Wiccan Joke:  How many Alexandrians does it take to change a light bulb?  Let’s see, how did the Gardnerians do it?

Every argument you can marshal to support the notion that the branches of Wicca I’ve listed aren’t Wicca apply to Alexandrian.  Your position simply is not internally consistent.

No they don’t. I’ll post separately to explain why.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

Seax Wica is not the same thing as Gardnerian Wicca.  It is Wicca.  Add Aidan Kelly to the list of Third Degree Gardnerians you’re contradicting.

Also, neither Buckland nor Valiente “went their own ways” — Buckland moved Wicca in a new direction with Seax, Valiente pretty much defined orthodox Gardnerian Wicca until her death.

Buckland didn’t ‘move’ Wicca in a new direction. Seax isn’t Wicca, and his Big Blue Book is full of utter tripe.

You need to compare notes with more Gardnerian Third Degrees:  alot of Gardnerians were very upset when he published the Big Blue Book because they felt he revealed a whole bunch of oathbound material.  You can’t have it both ways.

Well, until I am initiated to 3rd degree, there may be things I am not yet privy to.

As for Valiente, she left Gardner’s coven in ‘57 to form her own coven, then turned to Tubal Cain in ‘64. Tubal Cain is not Wicca. She preferred Tubal Cain because it had an even greater emphasis on getting closer to nature, something she felt Wicca lacked.

I’m surprised you’re not trying to claim that Coven of Atho represented a break from Wicca, given how much of Charles Cardell’s work it incorporated — no that you’d be any more correct in that instance.

Joining Tubal Cain in ‘64 did not negate her status as a Gardnerian High Priestess.  This should be clear from the fact that published works, well after her departure from Tubal Cain in ‘66, all fall well within the realm of Wicca.

I never said that she stopped being Wiccan, but she clearly wanted Wicca to go in a different direction, and considering she helped make Wicca what it became in Gardner’s day, she’d have a right to.

She did much to shape Wicca in the early days, hoping to pull it further away from Crowley’s work that Gardner had used bits of.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

With such an extensive period of study and practice, it is truly astonishing that you have proven you know far less than you think.

It does seem that all your difficulties here steam from the absurd notion that only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.

I never said only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.

Not in so many words, but from the way you say “Wicca” when the proper term would be “Gardnerian Wicca” your beliefs on the matter are clear.

BTW, what’s your lineage?

I can’t say the same for American Wiccans, but here in the UK, we don’t have the plethora of traditions that they do in America, so anything that doesn’t trace back and keep the tenets basic ways (probably the wrong way to describe it), isn’t Wicca. As I said, I’ll detail the reasons in a separate post.

I’m 2nd degree Gardnerian, though it’s been a few years since I was in a coven, and I pretty much practice alone. Of course, my personal practice isn’t Wiccan. It just suits me at the moment.

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca. Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

Wow. You is special.

But you missed the part where they passed down information about WIcca.

And you missed the part where Gardner appropriated from others. He is NOT even the first “Wiccan” so I guess you a Neo-Wiccan too. Welcome to the club. lowly like the rest of  us.

Gardner WAS the first Wiccan. He created the practice, and if you knew Wiccan history, you’d know that. He did appropriate things from various sources, and if people can’t deal with that, go elsewhere.

Gardner specifically stole elements of Wicca from others. Plus, from his own accounts He got information from  the New Forest coven. EVEN he does not claim to be anything “original”. And how the hell you gonna say he appropriated from others, but then claim that  NON-BT Wiccans are appropriating from him.

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

You can not CREATE and APPROPRIATE THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And why the hell in your world is Gardner allowed to pass down information but not Buckland,Cunningham and Starhawk are not.

Do you also refer to American English as NEO-English because it not the original version and was pass down? Do we all have to go to British school to be Real English speakers?

like go away and come back when you make sense.

Really??? *giggle-snort*

Gardner stole bits of WICCA from elsewhere??? That would be wuite the trick considering that Wicca didn’t exist in it’s total form before Gardner created it.

Anyone worth their salt knows that he took bits from Golden Dawn, Thelema, OTO, Leland, and mostly he claimed he was reviving a Witchcraft practice that he was initiated into and taught. Whether the latter is completely true, has never been proven definitively.

You seem to be missing the BIG point here. People can create, appropriate, practice or dabble in whatever the hell they want. Just don;t go around calling it a label that doesn’t fit.

Starhawk isn’t Wiccan. Cunningham created a Wiccan inspired solitary practice, but it isn’t Wicca. Buckland… Has a lot to answer for (That is a whole other topic).

Just because a bunch of people publish books and slap the Wicca label on them, doesn’t mean they are anything like Wicca.

holzmantweed:

seph7:

seph7:

sisoula:

seph7:

sisoula:

I. Just. Can’t.

Tools…

Tools…

Who knew you need special tools to honor nature, divine and the power within.

Who knew.

Wicca is not just about nature, and the tools required are found within a lineaged coven.

You cannot be Wiccan…

sisoula:

I would say being a Eclectic Wiccan for ten years. Or because I am one of the very few Wiccan, M.Div in USA. Because I wrote my Masters thesis on WICCA and Social Justice.

But none of that matters. 

It is because I can fuckin say what my religion  cause IT IS MY RELIGION.

But maybe you can go get a cookie from someone else cause you a FUCKIN SECOND DEGREE GARDNERIAN. WOOO FUCKIN WHO.

Really mature.

There’s no such thing as Eclectic Wicca.

Somebody watch this one closely at traffic crossings, OK?

*slow clap*

Wicca is just Wicca. If you’re dumping other bits and bobs from other things into your practice, it’s not Wicca. If you’ve never been initiated, you’re not Wiccan.

Are you seriously asserting that Alexandrian Wicca is not Wicca?  Georgian?  Blue Star?  Dianic? Algard?  Faery?  Or if you’re not so silly as to assert their nonexistence, are you asserting they are identical to Gardnerian Wicca?

Can you hold off on explaining that to them while I get some popcorn?

Also, self-Initiation is Initiation, per Valiente, per Anderson (Feri), per Faraar (Alexandrian)… this list does go on.

FYI, Alexandrian is VERY similar to Gardnerian. As for Georgian, Dianic, Blue Star and Feri/Faery/Fairy, no, they aren’t Wicca.

Oh, and FYI, both Valiente and Buckland were initiated, and then went their own ways. Their choice. Buckland created Seax-Wica. Not the same thing.

Seax Wica is not the same thing as Gardnerian Wicca.  It is Wicca.  Add Aidan Kelly to the list of Third Degree Gardnerians you’re contradicting.

Also, neither Buckland nor Valiente “went their own ways” — Buckland moved Wicca in a new direction with Seax, Valiente pretty much defined orthodox Gardnerian Wicca until her death.

Buckland didn’t ‘move’ Wicca in a new direction. Seax isn’t Wicca, and his Big Blue Book is full of utter tripe.

As for Valiente, she left Gardner’s coven in ‘57 to form her own coven, then turned to Tubal Cain in ‘64. Tubal Cain is not Wicca. She preferred Tubal Cain because it had an even greater emphasis on getting closer to nature, something she felt Wicca lacked.

She did much to shape Wicca in the early days, hoping to pull it further away from Crowley’s work that Gardner had used bits of.

I’ve been studying Wicca for 17 years. Was initiated 13 years ago. I think I know a thing or three.

With such an extensive period of study and practice, it is truly astonishing that you have proven you know far less than you think.

It does seem that all your difficulties here steam from the absurd notion that only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.

I never said only Gardnerian Wicca is Wicca.